Thanks for your reply and further explanation on the subject discussed.

Here are some of my thoughts.

Yeah, it is similar in my society here as far as Christianity as a western, modern faith is concerned. Many people I spoke to who are recent converts talks about how Christianity is so powerful, so nice, so loving in parallel to the west(as in their perception). When I show them a picture of Jesus as a middle-eastern man (from BBC) with big nose, tanned complexion and very curly hair, many were visibly shocked. Their physical perception of Jesus is a handsome, slim, Caucasian man with blond long hair and sharp facial features not like middle-eastern whom they have a “not so good’ impression given the media portrayal on terrorism and news about the middle east. So my initial derivation of observation is the ‘superficial perception’ of Christianity as a western, hip and advanced faith vs. the traditional “backward”Asian religions like Buddhism and Taoism (traditional faiths of Chinese Singaporeans).

The Protestant mega churches in Singapore (we have 4 of them here)also re-creates the faith by blending worship into a kind of business/fashion convention where people came dressed in their best business wear and where teenagers dressed in the latest fashion trend. Christian pop stars are invited from all over Asia to perform live music and concerts to this church congregation. The pastors hop around the world, giving speeches etc. Thus, they are appealing to those who belong to and who thinks globalization is the trend of this world. Directly also, they are attracting the very people that our society has become, given our emphasis on economic growth and development. A friend who belongs to these mega churches was shock when she visited Europe. The fashion people, the business people aren’t Christians. Even the pop stars have embraced Buddhism.
So, the Koreans may have mistaken the religion as modern, advanced when it is not exactly otherwise.
PS- I need to emphasize that not ALL are like the above as faith and beliefs are also important component of Christianity here.

I am not an expert in Korean affairs but I remembered a Korean lecturer in university who lamented that Koreans have a tendency to do things to the extreme. He tried to distinguish this extremism from the Japanese code of perfection by using the analogy of the regime in North Korea. The North’s beliefs of communism, including its “Juche Ideology” is so extreme that it affects its economy, its relationship with others and esp. with South Korea. Another facet of extremism is Korean Christianity. Korean people have taken Christianity into a level unprecedented in other countries, albeit negatively. Her missionaries sent worldwide are the world 2nd largest after the US and her mega church (Yoido Church) worlds largest. In recent years, there was also a rising knowledge and wariness of Korean Christians who are seen as very aggressive in their preaching methods. From Buddhist countries to Muslim ones, they are seen rather negatively by their actions and the Muslim countries are beginning to take a very active note of them. Sometimes their extremism cost them dearly, the murders in Afghanistan and arrest in Libya and other reports of deportation elsewhere.

I agreed with your view that the Korean Christians may want to create a “bastion of true Christianity” in Korea itself just as Singapore Christians want to make Singapore a “Bastion of Christianity” in South East Asia. However, I think while they may successfully create an impression that Korea is already Christian( which is not ) by trying to disrupt anything they sees as un-Christian or threatening its aim. They may also try to visibly present like holding massive Christian conferences, building massive church buildings and even using the President to further its aim. The more extreme methods would be like the recent reports of holding Christian prayers inside Buddhist temples and denouncing the religion.

I agreed with you your thoughts of the parallel reasons on the west turning back on Christianity just as Koreans did on Buddhism. However, I believe besides the corruption, exploitation and manipulation of the Church in the west that caused a rebuff against Christianity, there also cultural reasons presented. Many people were peeved that Christianity as a religion from the Middle East has held “hostage’ of the cultures of Europe esp. as being absurd. I may be wrong but my readings indicated a feeling that much of the traditional culture of Europe has been destroyed by the advent of Christianity and thus they have lost forever an important portion of their culture and tradition. Here is the difference. The Koreans may be peeved by the corruption and manipulation of Buddhism in Korea’s recent past but the religion has been part of Korea’s history for thousands of years. Moreover, it did not destroy Korea culture or traditions entirely .Infact Buddhism is being absorbed into traditional Korean religions likes Shamanism (Sanshin worship incorporated in Buddhist temple). The only thing un-Korean if you want to see it is Buddhism did not become extremist (in terms of expressing out politically and socially) and prefer to be low profile and unasserting.

I hope Korea and Korean people do not take Buddhism as un-Korean in this instance as I think it is a plus for Korea and her people.

Yeah, at least for Koreans Christianity comes from the modern, industrialized west. (Though in reality, it’s a Near Eastern religion that comes from a very premodern cultural background.) The same lack of critical consideration offered to globalization by many Koreans today is what Christianity seems to have received here over the last century. I am often bowled over by how so many institutions and individuals seemingly fail to understand that globalization is not seen worldwide and across all political spectra as inherently good. (I think some forms of globalization can be, but the neoliberal form that for example my university cheers for is one many people find really problematic. Yet in our school, globalization seems inherently to be understood both as one specific form, and as inherently wonderful. And the claim seems to go unchallenged by students even as they promote things like Buy Nothing Day, and so on.

I also agree that the extremism of Korean Christianity links to Korean extremism–Korean culture seems somehow to always push things to their most extreme possible form, including Confucianism itself. Not sure why.

You’re right, of course, to note that those Protestants in Korea who I called racist are most profoundly racist towards non-white and non-Western “foreigners,” and of course that was what I meant. However, I would be lying if I didn’t also confess that the people who have been most racist towards me have been, almost without fail, self-described (and very adamant) Protestant Christians. As I told my students one day, when they were claiming whites are treated wonderfully in Korea, “Just try being a white man walking down the street with a Korean woman, or a white woman with a Korean man, and see how nicely you’re treated. Or meet your Korean gf/bf’s parents. The niceness disappears pretty quickly,” … and I have found this is especially quick with Korean Protestants. In any case there are definitely parallels with the racist and bigoted Christians in the West: I’ve met bigoted Catholics and atheists, but most of the biggest and most self-righteous bigots I’ve met in the West were also Protestants.

(I’d say the proportions differ here. A lot of Protestants I’ve met back home were also nice. A smaller number I’ve met here were very nice too. I think niceness and human decency tends to be inversely proportional to how extreme one’s religiosity and dogmatism runs.)

No insult taken on your gun culture comment: I an a gun-control-supporting Canadian, by the way, so it’s not like I could be insulted by your comment anyway.

For me, my sense of traditional Korean culture are basically benign cultural stuffs that are infuse with traditional religious beliefs(eg the Sanshin culture-Mountain god worship).

Well, I’m dubious about the idea that anything in a society is innocuous, especially when it comes to people worshipping invisible beings. Somewhere along the line, money (or other resources) come into play, without fail.

From your explanation of how Koreans yearn for recognition from major powers esp the US and thus embraced Christianity, I think these Koreans are misguided and “unrealistic’.

I think you’re right that earlier evangelism has something to do with it, but Japanese colonialism and a long period of dictators brainwashing the population that they need to “catch up to America” (by putting economics first) also must have something to do with it. Not that I deride the desire to uplift Korea economically, but it’s skewed the society’s values in disturbing ways.

For me, the unrealism seems to stem from a poor understanding of how societies develop an international reputation, and Korea’s specific envy of the global awareness (muddled though it is) of Japan and China. Of course, most Koreans who are concerned with this haven’t bothered to look into why, say, Japan is so much more widely examined and discussed in the West. (As, say, is discussed in this book.)

Thus many Christians now still continue to see themselves as culturally advanced than Buddhist or non-Christian Koreans.

And, indeed, they seem to see themselves as more Christian than the West: I know Western Christians who, when they are harassed by such idiots, say, “I’m a Christian already,” after which it is insultingly insinuated that they’re probably not as faithful as a faithful Korean, not as virtuous and so on. Which is the kind of thing I think deserves a good loud telling-off, if not something more drastic.

I believed that in the long term as the west slowly abandon Christianity and the rise of Asian economic power, the hold of such ideas on Koreans may be loosened.

I dunno. The power of China ebbed away in the 20th century (in terms of Korean society) but their form of pseudo-Confucianism seems as strong as ever. I think Korean Christians will likely see themselves as a bastion of “true” Christianity long after the religion becomes even more marginal in the West (if indeed such a thing happens).

I am enlightened and very impressed by your in-depth insight. The Korean society is more complex than I envisoned.

Aren’t all societies that complex? I find that some Koreans, probably those who actually buy into a monolithic view of their society as is presented throughout education (and to some degree the media), tend to simplify the picture of Korean society they present to outsiders, claiming all Koreans feel X, or think Y, or believe Z. It’s simply not the case, but those who diverge tend not to talk about it much, so the monoliths seem less often to be challenged and smashed apart.

I think the story of Korean development is likewise complex. I would never diminish the hard work and sacrifice of millions of people, but Korea didn’t manage to pull itself up by its own bootstraps alone. A lot of money from overseas, and a lot of manpower donated by non-Koreans, goes unremembered here, which is probably one reason charity is such a fetishized notion in this society, but also so rare in practice.

Anyway, I think that if you’re aware of the reasons why people are turning their back on Christianity in the West–the history of corruption, the exploitation and manipulatoin of people by clergy, and so on–you’ll find that a lot of resentment towards Buddhism in Korean circles seems to steem from a similar historical rage. Buddhists here were far from saints, in the aggregate, and I’ve read a few pieces of writing (in books, no longer have them) like poems that eumerated the deceits and cheats of Taoist priests and Buddhist monks. there’s a tradition of such resentment in China, too: Lu Xun said something about how if you really want to understand the Chinese mind (in his day, ie. early 20th century) you had to understand why Chinese people mostly could tolerate Taoist priests, but hated Buddhist monks. I don’t know enough, but some of it at least was corruption and exploitation.

Hi, thanks for the reply. I have to say your response and explanation have given me a better understanding of Korean society . It did also prompt me to think more outside the box then only on the surface.

Here are some of my thoughts.

Yes, I agreed with you that some Koreans think that Christianity is associated with the western countries’ modernity, rich economy ,political power and globalization and therefore forward-looking and advance. Buddhism on the other hand is seen by some Koreans as symbolic folklore of a feudal past, old-fashion, and out-dated thoughts and rituals. I think this type of thinking of pragmatism stems from lay Confucianist thinking which also characterized the Chinese population in Singapore( where there is also a rising combative attitude among a rising Chinese Christian population against other religions notably Buddhism and Taoism). Since Christianity comes from the Industrialised, modern west, then it is only pragmatic to adopt it and worship it in earnest in order to ride the band-wagon of modernity and power. But unfortunately coupled with the streak of American conservative evangelism and Korean’s own character, Korean Christianity has become an extremist of sorts.

There is one thing I find amusing and funny about Korean Christians which you have rightly mentioned.. The most nationalistic, racist and the most “protective” of Korean “culture’ belongs to these group of evangelistic Christians. I think maybe we can group these particular “Korean culture’ as conservative cultures similar to the conservative groups in the US which is fiercely patriotic about everything American. But from my analysis, I think these Korean Christians are more racist against non-Christian and non-Caucasian foreigners than westerners or Americans. They are more prone to promote the nastier part of Korean culture just as some American Christian conservatives in the deep south want to continue the traditional gun culture(no offence intended) . I agreed that my definition of “traditional culture “ is subjective in this sense. For me, my sense of traditional Korean culture are basically benign cultural stuffs that are infuse with traditional religious beliefs(eg the Sanshin culture-Mountain god worship).

From your explanation of how Koreans yearn for recognition from major powers esp the US and thus embraced Christianity, I think these Koreans are misguided and “unrealistic’.I think the teachings of earlier Christian evangelists from the west may have influenced these type of logic that are now prevalent among Korean Protestant groups in Korean society. The western missionaries in the past have taught the Koreans that embracing Christianity is akin to becoming as advance as the west compared to her neighbours China or Japan. These teachings taught and spread to Koreans during the earlier century when Japan is colonizing her lends impetus and solidified into a kind of political ideology for these Christians. I believed these is the cause why many nationalists are Christians and socially and politically very active in Korean society.The Buddhists and non –Christian Koreans may be as such but done in a low profile and no mention of religious affiliation publicly.This can also explain why people normally do not care about these Christians, even when they are creating tension. Thus many Christians now still continue to see themselves as culturally advanced than Buddhist or non-Christian Koreans.

I believed that in the long term as the west slowly abandon Christianity and the rise of Asian economic power, the hold of such ideas on Koreans may be loosened . This doesn’t mean it will happened over-night as evangelists are always very determined to keep people faith in their religious beliefs and will try ways and means to infuse it into their minds. I think the ever-increasing belligerent actions of the Protestant Christians against the Buddhists is a reflection of this urgency to keep the Christian faith strong in Korean society. In fact, there are even lop-sided articles among evangelists, both Korean and Chinese that attribute China’s economic rise to Christianity. So these Christian evangelists were very quick to associate anything good to the religion with the very purpose of gaining converts.

I am enlightened and very impressed by your in-depth insight. The Korean society is more complex than I envisoned. Buddhism may not be the remedy for Korean utopia. However, I think that Buddhism, can provide some harmony to Korean society on the fact that it is less aggressive and that is has been part of the culture,tradition and thoughts for the Korean people for some 1700 years. The Korean people are not only successful during the last 40 years. There were great golden periods in Korea’s history. Far from the biased assertion of some Christians, South Korea’s success now is not because of Christianity nor the blessing of the west, it is the hardworking Korean people who are the architects. And these people have their cultures in Buddhism and other great traditions before Christianity came to Korean’s shore. I hope Korean people can understand this .

While I do think you’re right to bemoan the power and popularity of evangelical Christianity in Korea–and one of the points you miss is that for most Korean Christians, Christianity is equated with, or seen as an ineradicable part of, globalized modernity, something they think is good–I don’t think the nation would necessarily be doing better under a Buddhist theocracy. In my experience, Buddhists in Korea aren’t as pushy as evangelicals, but they’re not all that Buddhist, either.

I agree that in general, Catholics in Korea tend to be much less offensive than the Protestants, though there are some ongoing scandals that have broken, or may soon break out, in terms of educational institutions.

As for Korean converts to Christianity hating their own culture; well, it depends how to define “hate”: I’ve never met anyone more rigidly nationalistic, racist towards non-Koreans, or more eager to justify or glorify the nastier and more oppressive parts of Korean historical culture (or for that matter, things like bigotry and sexism in the present) than evangelical Christian Koreans. I think the “destroying traditional culture” thing is, well, a complex question. Korean society has jettisoned a lot of its traditional culture, but more in favor of modernity than in favor of Christianity. There is an inferiority complex in Korean society–a constant yearning to be recognized and respected by the West (especially, and focally, America) in ways that are unrealistic given Korea’s status in history, its place (or lack thereof) in American popular cultural history, and so on.

The tolerance of Protestant Christians seems to have settled in again since when I wrote that article, but Catholicism did grow suddenly, and Protestant churches suddenly lost a fair number of people. It was nice to see a lot of people speaking out, finally. I think the real problem is that social codes of politeness prevent people from speaking out publicly on the spot: when evangelical nuts gather and make noise (singing in the street, blasting Christian music and marching around, and so on), nobody confronts them with the public nuisance they’re creating. Call the cops, they do nothing to stop the disturbance. But then, disturbing the peace is a very commonly accepted behavior here, as any walk down any street will demonstrate. (Constant loud, amplified noise like music in shop doors, for starters, is perceived as annoying by most people; but it’s not perceived as a violation of anything, and persists even into the night.)

As for discipline, harmony, and perseverance: hmmm. Careful how much of your Korean friend’s characterization of this society you take unquestioned. I find Korean society to be a place where harmony is very much praised and fetishized, but where it is, in actuality, quite rare. (I find Koreans wax poetical about harmony, but have a very odd way of “achieving” it, mostly by pretending respect for those older whether they feel it or not, and going with the flow even when it ruins their lives wholly.) Discipline: again, this is the positive spin on what I see as being willing to be pushed around. Koreans boast of their long work hours as a sign of greatness: I point to the way everyone had oppressively long work hours till they showed the discipline to fight for limits on work hours, to fight to have those limits enforced, and so on. (Korean workplace productivity is a great indicator that what people are doing at the office is not constant, disciplined work… and how could it be?) Finally, perseverance: well, again, a positive spin. I agree perseverance is good, but it depends what one is being asked to persevere, whether it can be characterized as such, or the willingness to take crap from so-called “authorities.”

Which is not to mock or insult Korean society, just… you seem to be possessed of a somewhat, well, utopian and idealized view of a society that is much more complex and, in some ways, among the most dystopian (in terms of freedoms and rights of citizens) of the G20 nations.

Korea and Koreans have a very rich, vibrant and advanced culture that has its roots in Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism.Buddhism contributed tremendously to Korea’s national and ethnic pride in the field of advanced painting, printing and architecture. In fact the hardworking Korean people, their determination, their dedication and the advances in the last few decades can be attributed to Buddhist principles of discipline , harmony and preseverence.A united Korean nation guided by Buddhism will enabled the nation to prosper happily.

In the last century and 3 decades, because of geopolitical reasons, Christian missionaries brought their religion to Korean people and aggressively preached it to them.This give rise to a growth of Protestant Christianity who followed the extreme and evangelistic streak. These Christian missionaries could not accept the advance ancient Korean culture which preceded Christanity. Thus Korean converts were taught to hate their own culture to the point of destroying it.The mantle now have been past to native Korean Christians in the determined effort to destroy Korean culture and religion and planted a Christian society, totally erased of its previous self. Unfortunately some Koreans were brainwashed by this extreme ideology and did just that.

That is very sad. My Korean friend assured me that non-Christians in South Korean numbers nearly 70%,and the Catholics are nice people not like those extreme Protestants. So its almost 80% of non-Protestant Koreans. But it seems the Koreans continue to tolerate the discrimination and actions of these Christians quietly. These Koreans must show a united front to confront these extremists peacefully but boldly. The whole Republic of Korea cannot be held hostage by a minority of bigots who are misguided by their brand of extreme Christianity.

Thanks. I do understand some Korean, though it’s not nearly as good as friends. I was talking a lot with a few people at the time when I wrote that, including some mentioned in the post itself.

Yeouido’s Full Gospel Church is famous all over the world, especially among those who oppose or dislike megachurches. I’ve had it brought up to me by Texans, for example. It’s nothing new for relatives of clergy, or clergy themselves, to be involved in “dirty business” like a Sports Newspaper: hundreds of years ago, the English poet Geoffrey Chaucer wrote,

… if gold ruste, what shal iren do?
For if a preest be foul, on whom we truste,
No wonder is a lewed man to ruste;
And shame it is, if a prest take keep,
A shiten shepherde and a clene sheep.
Wel oghte a preest ensample for to yive,
By his clennesse, how that his sheep sholde lyve.

which translates (here) to:

… if gold rust, what must iron do?
For if a priest, on whom we trust, should be foul
It is no wonder for a layman to go bad;
And it is a shame, if a priest is concerned:
A shit-stained shepherd and a clean sheep.
Well ought a priest to give an example,
By his purity, how his sheep should live.

I’m confused, though, about your claim that the newspapers are not “rightwing” — given the huge displeasure with Park last year, I would have imagined the major newspapers, had they been solely profit-driven, would have castigated him publicly, screaming for his immediate dethronement, er, I mean, impeachment, for some random reason. They didn’t.

To be honest, as a Canadian, the Korean political establishment across the spectrum looks largely right-wing in terms of social policy, and surprisingly left wing in terms of economics, health care, and so on.

I could be talking about my butt, but the desire to protect the economy, the universality of health care (which even Lee couldn’t dismantle), and the laws regarding employment seem relatively more left-wing to me. But at the same time you have an arch-conservative social policy across both sides of the spectrum, with a real hard-on for online surveillance, braking social and cultural change, and so on.

I think Korea’s momentum in terms of democracy is complex, and I’d need to know more than I do to talk about it usefully.

Like you, I distrust and fear neoliberalization. Globalization, well, I think a positive and healthy form could be possible, but since we’re letting fascists and businessmen (the difference is narrow sometimes) run the process, of course we’re ending up with something unhealthy and stupid and dangerous.

But hey, don’t be so skeptical about human nature. There’s hope. Other people feel the way you do, and far more would if they actually spent time thinking about it. You can find them, and enliven them. Korean society needs that from people like you, as much as the English speaking world needs it from people like me.

Aha, the reason you cannot read the whole thing is because I marked it to be unreadable to non-members of this site, given the political climate. You should be able to read it now.

You might want to look around the site a bit more, too. I appreciate you trying to bring me up to speed, and I’m not saying I know everything there is to know, but a lot of the things you’ve written are things I know already (after eight years here, and a fair bit of it paying attention to my surroundings).

I’m happy to dialog, but I don’t want to be spending a third of each response saying, “Yeah, I know, I know…” so maybe just assume I’m relatively knowledgeable and I’ll clue you in if I am confused by something you write.

As for people thinking Protestants have a “cartel” in Korea, I certainly do think they have a kind of power-network. Not underground or anything, just enough generalized awareness of politicians’ affiliations, and just enough stupidity ot ignore issues and vote along religious lines.

(I know a few people who complained that their more ardent Protestant friends all voted for Leea and then were shocked when he started trying to fulfill his absurd campaign promises.)

As for the rise of theocratic/imperial fascism in Korea, well, there’s also, behind the scenes, quite a bit of very off-putting economic exploitation going on all over the developing world. The last I heard, Korean businesspeople (among others) were eyeing Myanmar as a source of high-quality lumbers, and Koreans are famous in some places as owners of sweatshops.

(Not that Americans and Canadians aren’t buying some of the stuff produced in those sweatshops. The thing about globalization is that we all get to share in the exploitation!)

I tend to agree with the misgivings that many people have about President Lee. I tend to agree quite strongly with those who oppose him strongly.

My pc’s time is ticking out. I will write my opinion about the trend home…
P.S Cho-Sun newspaper is not ultra-conservative in general.
Term ‘conservertive’ is different in Korea. I will write about it. It is all complicated.

Yeah, that’s why I wrote this line: “And I think that the dialogue about “Christians” (which is the term Koreans use for Protestants) is another one of those remarkable, fascinating things.”

You’re half-correct: Koreans don’t “use” the word differently, they misuse it. Christian, if you look at the word itself, obviously means people who follow (and worship) Christ. By definition that includes Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and even any weirdo newbie cults that venerate Jesus. Koreans use it to refer only to Protestants in error, therefore.

(Though I would wager it is an error that grew up out of the fact that this usage was probably common at one point among arrogant and doctrinaire Protestants of the past (and, indeed, some of the present: I once met a secretary in Montreal who did the same thing: “No, I’m not Catholic, I’m a Christian!”). I’d wager this kind of arrogance and doctrinaire attitude were common among religious missionaries over the last few centuries at least; so it’s likely Korean Protestants got the misuse from Protestant missionaries, and started using the word to refer to themselves, after which everyone else started using the word.

You wrote that the “surge of anti-christian” feeling “is for Protestants” — which is correct. As I also noted, the Catholic Church was growing at the time I wrote that post. I haven’t kept up: has the trend continued, or collapsed?

I wonder why that IP is banned? Maybe there’s an international spammer in your neighborhood, using your ISP? Hmmm. Anyway, please check your email and you should find the solution there… thanks!

Strange. I live in Seocho.

Solution?

Well, as I say, I don’t think it is a surge as much as an explosion of dialogue about long-pent-up “anti-Christian” feeling among the non-”Christian” majority here, which is unfortunately being downplayed by the newspapers as some kind of minority aberration, or nasty troublemaking on the part of a minority.

Explicitly, the stimulus is the hostage situation in Afghanistan. But yeah, I’d say the Yoido Full Gospel Church might be part of it. That Church has satellite all over the country, and they are richer than sin, and I seem to recall some pretty awful crap being preached there.

But Cho and his church would only be part of it, and, I suspect, a small part of it… if you look out at the night skyline of any Korean town of city, there are dozens of red neon crosses marking churches, and they are all vying for converts. I think, like I said, a lot of the anger we’re seeing is coming from negative personal experiences… where just the discomfort of knowing your friend is at home praying fervently “against Ramadan,” or whether it’s discovering your pastor sold the church off and started a PC-bang, or you were ignored in a group job interview after answering the question “What’s your religion?” honestly. Whether or not such discimination is illegal here, it is, in business, pretty widely practiced. (As is sexual descrimination, age discrimination, and even nepotism, so you can imagine how little anyone can effectively combat it. Even many laws that do exist don’t get enforced, as it is.)

In other words, I think it would be a mistake to blame any one factor. I think it’s just a widespread distaste that people had never expressed before, and suddenly discovered others shared when criticisms of the missionaries in Afghanistan began to surface.

Yoido Full Gospel Church could become a focal symbol for that, though. I know that it is the church that arouses the strongest distaste and fear on my part, and on the part even of some active, church-going foreign Protestants I know. But since their website hasn’t been hammered off the Net by hateful comment spam as of yet, I’d say that no, they aren’t right now a focal point of anger or disgust specifically.