I do think “fleas” is a distinctly suitable descriptor for a certain number of the commenters there, though.

Since the name of the site is “The Marmot’s Hole” wouldn’t they be better named “The Marmot’s Skid Marks”?

I bet there are things about Korea that your wife complains about, too, eh? For that and more, see the next installment!

It may also be that, for the sake of their relationships, these expat spouses limit their bitching to conversation with other expats, or online ranting — which could help explain why it’s so fervent there, as it’s so pent-up.

This is exactly my situation. There are a few topics I bitch about with the wife, the rest I complain with my expat friends over coffee. I don’t complain often, but sometimes you do need to vent.

Well, I know when I went through a low period and complained about aspects of Korean society a lot, it drove Lime nuts, even when she agreed (in general) with a lot of the criticisms. I have seen a lot of expat’s spouses who either shared their spouse’s deep dissatisfaction with life Korea, or who in fact wanted nothing more than to leave with the spouse.

It may also be that, for the sake of their relationships, these expat spouses limit their bitching to conversation with other expats, or online ranting — which could help explain why it’s so fervent there, as it’s so pent-up.

As for the sentiments of the Chinese toward Koreans, that’s interesting. I think in terms of professional interactions, though, it’s easy to see why, though. The business cultures — at least according to one of my Chinese grad students, who’s done a ton of internships — differs vastly.

She was telling me that a ton of people were advising her to stay in Korea for a year or two and work here before returning to China. (She’s an accountant.) Her response was that she simply couldn’t stand it, just on the basis of the notions of efficiency here. She said it would drive her batty to work in a place as officious and inefficient as the few Korean businesses she’s had firsthand experience with.

Actually, her expat complaining — as a Chinese woman in Korea — was fascinating as it made me wonder what else non-white/non-Western foreigners here complain about that differs from the more common white man ranting.

For example, she said was that she’d been slated, in her (now current) internship at a major accounting firm in Beijing, to work as a liaison with some Korean partners or clients, I can’t remember. Anyway, this meant she had to take them out to dinner, and — in her own words — say things like, “Oh, yes, I know kimchi! Kimchi is very delicious!” or “Do you know you Jeon Ji Hyun? Yes, I think she’s beautiful too!” and other I Love Korea™ stuff. So apparently the never-ending need for positive reinforcement of Korea’s positive, iconic aspects is something Chinese expats here pickup very quickly, and find alien. (She used the word “childish,” actually. And this is from someone who liked it enough her to actually stay and do grad school here!)

I’ve had a couple of foreign-Korean (ie. “gyopo”) friends whose complaints were more along the lines of, “No, I’m not Korean, not in the way you think it signifies,” and complained about being expected to speak Korean perfectly (or urged to speak it in situations when they just couldn’t), and things like that. One wonders what, say, Nepalese or Bangladeshi (?) expats hang around complaining about — that is, how much overlaps with what the white English teachers talk about, and how much is stuff we have no idea about.

True. In real life, most of my expat friends weren’t whingers, but our social circle is a select group, too. Regarding some whinging expats dating/married to Korean women, I cannot understand why those women would choose partners who have such strong negative feelings about the culture and the society that produced those women and their families and friends. I am critical of my own country, but I would not feel comfortable about someone of any nationality who was mostly critical or complained all the time about Americans and our culture. I wonder if those women also feel alienated from Korean culture and society. I have a good friend who is part of a mixed American-Canadian family. She is the only one who has maintained US citizenship, yet she is the most vocal in her dislike of American politics, values, and way of life.

A curious and possibly related observation is the young Chinese hold strongly negative views about Korea, out of proportion to Goguryeo and other real and imagined disputes. In China, both Han and Joseonjok Chinese had mixed opinions of Koreans based on personal and professional interactions. Although historical anti-Japanese sentiment is strong among Chinese, Japanese residents of China don’t seem to leave as strong an impression as Koreans do among Chinese and fellow foreigners alike.

Good point. But just as it would be unfair to judge all Koreans by the drunk ajeoshi who tried to start a fight with me in front of E-Mart, it’s probably unfair to judge all expats in Korea (or even a majority of them) by The Marmot’s Fleas.

Then again, it wouldn’t surprise me too much if lots of expat-Korean relationships were a little weak in the communication department. Not because of the language & culture difference, though: I find the explicit differences and challenges seem to make a lot of people try harder to understand their partner, where people from the same culture have more chance to assume they share opinions that they may not.

Rather, I think communication might have issues because (a) many relationships tend to be that way even between people from the same culture, and (b) because the way many Koreans seem to be raised (and some Westerners too) is to avoid confrontations about issues, because talking about the issue is making the problem. The two may well sort of cultivate a comfort zone of avoiding problems, and once it becomes more comfortable not to deal with something, avoidance becomes the shared response. I can imagine that leading to a lot of sublimated venting, too.

I also can say the following from experience: when things are going wrong with you Korean other half, it can adversely affect your feelings toward the whole country. Marriage is really a difficult institution, and people bitch about it everywhere — semi-privately, usually by decrying the opposite sex in general — but I imagine a lot of the static that comes up in marriages between foreigners and Koreans gets vented in terms of nationality or culture instead. (Instead of “Men/Women are all crazy!” it’s “Koreans/Americans/Canadians/Chinese make no sense!”)

Maybe I should have written:

“For many intelligent and thoughtful foreigners here who are blessed enough to be in healthy relationships…” That would, I imagine, exclude a lot of The Aforementioned Fleas. :)

I wonder how true that is. At TMH, some commenters who rarely have anything nice to say about Korea and Koreans are married to or dating Korean women, a fact they cite as evidence they can’t be racist against Koreans. As you noted, it isn’t hard for men to find a Korean mate, and it seems that most of the whinging is done by men.

True. I think, though, there are also there are more niches for even the non-sociable to slip into back home. I hesitate to imagine what the SF geeks I met in the Montreal SF club would do for friends if they ended up here. (They were way more SF-geeky than me, mind you.) I mean, living in Seoul is one thing, but when you live in Iksan, it’s a bit more like high school. A brigade of drunken fratboys here, a pair of lifer alcoholics there… we who were happily on the fringes of that world hooked up, hiked, checked out the jimjilbang, talked about books and history, and studied Korean and all that, but we usually connected by pure chance, sometimes unaware of the presence of other sane foreigners for months after the person had arrived. Hmmm. Probably the issue is critical mass: once you’ve got a big enough population of people into something — English-language literature — they can converge and someone will make a profitable venue for them. I wish I could find the few other people in the Seoul area who’d like to study Ezra Pound with me, as my brief experience with such a group in Jeonju (with another foreigner who was into poetry, and a Korean co-worker who’d always wanted to study Pound up-close) was like a breath of fresh air. Then again, I haven’t really tried, as I’m so damned busy and live outside Seoul.

That club you describe sounds good, and sounds like one a number of expats I have known could have used. Indeed, I could too, to some degree… though there’s a difference between a club (regular meetings) and a community (that you can sort of dop into and out of naturally). Still, good niche, and all that. I’d show up for a mountain hike, at least sometimes.

I should start a westerners’ makkoli-free mountain hiking/book/language exchange club. That’d be an interesting niche that’s so far unreached, so far as I know.

… and that those who are lacking a hobby or interest or community outside of work seem to end up with more pent up frustrations. :) Or downright crazy, actually. I sometimes wonder how many of the crazy foreigners I meet weren’t crazy before they arrived, but went into a kind of social/mental form of semi-isolation and lost it.

I absolutely don’t mean to patronize, but it took some time for me to find the things about Korean society that, er, bug me to no end. “Honeymoon period” or not, I’m honestly glad to see someone happy here. If and when things DO get to you, I’m sure you’ll find your way. Speaking from experience? Bookmark Roboseyo’s first post on this discussion, and you can meet me to rant over a beer, if the day comes and you guys are still in country. BK seems like a good guy, so blessed be y’all.

Mark,

Oh, no, it’s won all the way. But I was thinking of getting my piddly savings OUT of the country. No idea what’s coming, but I’m a little optimistic. The first collapse was bad.

No idea where we’ll end up: depends on who accepts Lime as a resident. If she focuses on the speciality she’s interested in, it’s a list of mostly cool places — including Washington, actually, though I was a bit ugh! considering the crime rate — the worst of which is Atlanta. East Coast, in any case.

Ha, she said, “I can get a placement in Brooklyn, guaranteed, but with a very high chance of contracting HIV while on ER duty.” We laughingly agreed that even South Dakota would be preferable to that, hellish as it sounds.

Where do you plan on moving too in the US?

I am dating a Korean, which I met while still in AMerica. Our time together here in Seoul I feel allows me to really feel comfortable here. I ask him a few things about what is going on around me but really I am treating the life around me like it was usual.

For example, I laugh at what looks funny and make jokes. I would do this in America.

My bond with Korea I feel is happening at a pace I am comfortable with. :)

Anyways I hope this discussion carries itself further.

Thanks! And yeah, I’m happy to see a discussion like this going on. Hopefully more people will pile on.

EFL Geek,

Yeah, you sound as busy as me. Maybe more. I didn’t know you’d been here 11 years. So having made it through the last economic collapse, do you think we’re due for another?

In that area over the 11 years I’ve been here, I’ve gotten an M.A. learned Korean, improved my computing skills, taken hapkido, and more recently started a business.

Completely agree about the ‘interface’ thing.

Good write up. Good to see you and all getting into this topic well and good. Good on yas!
j.w.