The Slave Register?!?!?

So, I go online searching for any information at all about where to ge a kneeling chair or kneeling stool (like this one) within Korea. I haven’t a clue, and most of the furniture places I’ve been only carry standard chairs. So anyway, what do I happen across? A post (I’m not even going to link to it) at The Slave Register. What’s that, you ask? Why, it’s a bulletin board for people who are WILLING SLAVES. You know, like the awful Goreans (as in “fans of Gor”, not “Koreans” misspelled) that I posted about long ago?

Idiots. Really, really, stupid. After all that fighting to eliminate slavery, these people roleplay it for fun.

And we wonder why the planet is in such a mess.

By the way, I think I found a kneeling chair model (finally!), but if I can get one for a little cheaper, I’d be happy. And I prefer not to buy anything like a chair until I can actually try it out someplace. Anyone have any ideas?

UPDATE: Lime found this chair, which she says in the Korean text suggests it’s good for my condition. I don’t see direct mention of it in the English, but that’s not surprising… and it does speak generally of problems in the pelvic area, which I figure includes prostate issues. I’ll run it by the doc this week and see.

10 thoughts on “The Slave Register?!?!?

  1. It strikes me as moronic that someone who believes in SLAVERY is calling me anti-libertarian. I mean… isn’t the root of libertarianism liberty? And isn’t slavery a relationship which, by definition, does not involve liberty?

    Oh, wait, you’re confused about what “slave” means. I see. Let me help you.

    Slavery was a part of most societies’ hierarchically exploitative systems. Slavery was the opposite of liberty except for a few. Slavery was the excuse by which murder, rape, and extraction of forced labour were performed.

    Slavery was not a neat-o sexcapade game in which everyone was a willing participant. It was a universal, odious practice that constituted the greatest continuous crime against human liberty ever carried out.

    BDSM games aren’t “slavery”. To use that word is as offensive as people painting themselves in blackface and then calling themselves “niggers”, or men putting on bras stuffed with oranges and calling themselves “workin’ girls”.

    If you wanna play role-playing games of dominance and submission, fine: some people get off on that, I suppose, for whatever curious psychological reason. But for fuck’s sake, have some respect for the human beings who (a) lived and died in abject suffering throughout human history because of the institution of slavery, and (b) the people who fought against it so that this horrendous institution could be abolished (and for those who continue to fight it, for slavery — real human bondage, in which a person, without their consent, becomes the property of another person — still exists in our world, in a space far apart from whatever little sex games you indulge yourself in at home).

    Not that I imagine someone whose sexual obsessions play such a huge role in his lifestyle is actually going to devote any brain power to figuring that out. But, I’m telling you so you don’t have to think further, and because the rhetoric seems to be clouding your thought processes — it is offensive.

  2. gordsellar wrote “It strikes me as moronic that someone who believes in SLAVERY is calling me anti-libertarian. I mean… isn’t the root of libertarianism liberty? And isn’t slavery a relationship which, by definition, does not involve liberty?”

    Slavery involves not having liberty, present tense. Consensual slavery relies on having the freedom – the liberty – to divest oneself of one’s liberty, future tense.

    See the difference?

    “Slavery was not a neat-o sexcapade game in which everyone was a willing participant.”

    (You’re a bit hung up about the sexual bit, aren’t you, btw?)

    Not everyone. But some. Just as women in strict marriages weren’t always unwilling.

    The problem was the lack of choice about entering such relationships. That’s the difference now.

    “If you wanna play role-playing games of dominance and submission, fine: some people get off on that, I suppose, for whatever curious psychological reason.”

    Are you homophobic too, or is just some consensual sexualities between adults that you sneer at?

    “I imagine someone whose sexual obsessions play such a huge role in his lifestyle is actually going to devote any brain power to figuring that out.”

    Ooohh! Sex!! Scary!!!

    Please deal with your own hangups before attacking the consensual relationship choices of other adults.

    Tanos

  3. Slavery involves not having liberty, present tense. Consensual slavery relies on having the freedom – the liberty – to divest oneself of one’s liberty, future tense.

    See the difference?

    I’m sorry. I think you need to take a history of philosophy class. The liberty to give up liberty doesn’t make sense: liberty is an inalienable right, which is something generally agreed upon among all countries that uphold the notion of human rights — including my country and yours. One cannot alienate oneself from the inalienable. One can pretend to do so for extended periods of time — as your “slaves” do — but that is role-playing. You’re getting all philosophical except you’re missing how illogical it is. If your slaves were really slaves, you would have bought them somewhere. You would be within your rights to kill or recapture them if, at some point, they tried to reassert their liberty. You could sell your mutual offspring as human chattel.

    All those things are illegal. What are you left with? Bondage games in your dungeon basement. Why are your trotting out libertarian philosophy to prove that consensual slavery’s acceptable? I was pointing out how it’s not really slavery.

    “Slavery was not a neat-o sexcapade game in which everyone was a willing participant.?

    (You’re a bit hung up about the sexual bit, aren’t you, btw?)

    Well, considering that sex played a role in historical slavery — sex slavery has been a part of every major military in history, and occurred even in WWII — yeah, I’m hung up on people using the term. I am. Sue me.

    Not everyone. But some. Just as women in strict marriages weren’t always unwilling.

    The problem was the lack of choice about entering such relationships. That’s the difference now.

    Are you implying that slaves were sometimes willingly enslaved? Because that has got to be the stupidest thing I’ve heard from you. You should try doing some research into history, to see what conditions caused most people to enter into slavery.

    If there is choice, then it’s not slavery. Duh. It’s submissive roleplay, it’s Gorean roleplay, whatever, but FFS it’s not slavery.

    Women in strict marriages weren’t always unwilling? Hell, they still aren’t always unwilling. But that says something about how fucked-up it is how womens’ minds are shaped by certain societies, and how few other options they have sometimes.

    Are you homophobic too, or is just some consensual sexualities between adults that you sneer at?

    No, I happen not to be homophobic. I don’t even have any strong feelings about you being into BDSM games. I’m not even really sneering at the fact that your psychology is curiously wired up so that you get off on playing domination games, as sensitive as you might be. Seems like you’re trying to change the subject again. The point was that to trot out the word “slavery” for something that isn’t slavery, and then trot out libertarianism as a defense for it, that’s overkill.

    “I imagine someone whose sexual obsessions play such a huge role in his lifestyle is actually going to devote any brain power to figuring that out.?

    Ooohh! Sex!! Scary

    Please deal with your own hangups before attacking the consensual relationship choices of other adults.

    What hangups? I described your “lifestyle” as an obsession. Have you spent more than a few thousand dollars on gear and on situating yourself so as to practice it? I have obsessions too — you can click on the book link to the left to have a look at one of them.

    But I find that people who focus their lives on sexual obsessions tend not to think very hard about anything else, anyway. Such as where you, above, sprang to the “defense” of your hobby, without thinking seriously about what I said regarding the term “slavery”.

  4. gordseller wrote:

    “I think you need to take a history of philosophy class. The liberty to give up liberty doesn’t make sense: liberty is an inalienable right, which is something generally agreed upon among all countries that uphold the notion of human rights—including my country and yours.”

    People frequently give up some or all of their liberty in other contexts: taking monastic vows, joining armed forces etc. Some people also take marrige vows seriously, and give up large parts of their liberty then too (vowing to obey etc.)

    Maybe you don’t hold with any of these ideas, that
    people own their own bodies and should have the freedom to enter into relationships with others as they choose, and should keep their word even when it becomes inconvenient. I don’t know.

    But the bile you’re pouring out to me by email makes it pretty clear your position on all this is motivated by your bigotry and hang-ups about what you see as sex and what we see as relationships
    between consenting adults.

    “I don’t even have any strong feelings about you being into BDSM games. I’m not even really sneering at the fact that your psychology is curiously wired up so that you get off on playing domination games”

    In private you’re questioning the mental health of the men and women who choose these kinds of relationship; and in private you talk about society drawing a (legal) line about what kinds of relationships should be acceptable.

    Face it: 50 years ago, bigots like you were saying the same things about homosexuals.

  5. Tanos,

    No, people do not give up all of their liberty in other contexts. The only cases in which they do are in cults, in which case it’s usually considered acceptable to kidnap them back, as their sacrifice of all liberty is considered the product of brainwashing.

    I didn’t pour bile out at you, you big baby. I noted that mentally healthy people do not enter into contracts in which they give up all of their liberty to another person, nor do they enter into contracts which require others to do so. Until you can produce some evidence to the contrary, this very basic common sense stands, and nothing you’ve written — no melodramatic misuse of the bigotry against homosexuals, no libertarian rhetoric, nothing that is a mere distraction from the issue establishes anything otherwise.

    And no, I don’t see the Master/Slave arrangement your sites are devoted to as “sex”, I see them as disturbing and profoundly unhealthy relationships… I see them as relationships, just not good ones.

    So, setting aside another of your pet distractions — that I see this only as sex, and not relationships: how is living in a Master/Slave relationship healthy?

    Not healthy according to you, of course: any heroin addict will tell you that heroin is great for him, and he’ll die without it — and he might — but that doesn’t mean heroin is healthy. Ask any doctor, and she’ll tell you most emphatically that it isn’t. There are plenty of mental health professionals who are radically open-minded about sexuality and about the forms that relationships take.

    So, are there any mental health professionals who have endorsed this? Anyone at all with any training in mental health? Because I’m willing to bet there aren’t any who aren’t themselves involved in such lifestyles themselves — which is a confict of professional interest.

    That was the gist of of my email, which you so carefully distorted. It wasn’t bile: it was a very standard and sensible set of comments from a liberal point of view — one that notes that humans beings are fragile and vulnerable, and that mental health problems are, because of stigma, much more common than we tend to admit. And that people with mental health problems tend to make very unhealthy decisions in all kinds of contexts. And that for that reason, it’s wise to have legal safeguards against people taking advantage of others in such situations.

    The “bigotry” I extend to you is better analogized with the “bigotry” Western society now has against wife-beaters or men who psychologically torture their wives, not homosexuals. As I noted in my email, nobody bashes BDSMers… but gay people are still getting beaten up all over the world. So save your melodrama and hysterics, which are as overblown as those of the Christian right! This has nothing to do with bigotry and homosexuals, though it seems that’s the only analogy you can come up with, so you mention it over and over.

    If anyone is bigoted, it’s you: you seem to think “mental health problems” are such a horrible thing to be accused of having… why is that?

  6. Gordseller: “how is living in a Master/Slave relationship healthy?

    Not healthy according to you, of course: any heroin addict will tell you that heroin is great for him”

    And of course, this is the basic principle of all fascists from Plato onwards: people are not qualified to decide the course of their own lives, since “we” (Gordseller in this case) know better. Indeed, people are specifically unqualified to decide their own lives because they’re biased.

    “So, are there any mental health professionals who have endorsed this?”

    Guy Baldwin is the obvious example.

    “I didn’t pour bile out at you, you big baby.”

    So you’re playground bully as well as a bigot.

    “And that people with mental health problems tend to make very unhealthy decisions in all kinds of contexts. And that for that reason, it’s wise to have legal safeguards against people taking advantage of others in such situations.”

    Except it’s only you who are asserting that people
    pursuing M/s relationships must be mentually ill,
    just as your kind claimed that Soviet dissidents
    “must” be mentally ill to be dissidents, and
    homosexuals “must” be mentally ill to be gay.

    It’s just yet another way of trying to control
    people: label anyone as mad if they don’t conform
    to your narrow views about what kinds of
    relationships should be made illegal, as you’ve
    revealed in private.

    “As I noted in my email, nobody bashes BDSMers”

    BDSM people continue to suffer dicrimination in
    the workplace, at child custody hearings and from
    bigots like you in the criminal justice system:
    people are sacked for doing consensual BDSM, lose
    access to their children if their ex finds out,
    and suffer raids and legal harrassment of our
    clubs – just as gay men and women were 50 years
    ago.

    “I don’t see the Master/Slave arrangement your sites are devoted to as ‘sex'”

    and

    “I didn’t pour bile out at you, you big baby.”

    Well then you’re a liar too, because this is the
    kind of thing you’re really saying by email:

    “The lowest common human denominator is sex,
    so of course you get (relatively a lot of)
    traffic… even if it’s just a weird minority,
    really, considering all net users.”

  7. Hey, Tanos. I don’t spell your name Tanoes, do I? Could you try to spell my name correctly when you come here spewing?

    how is living in a Master/Slave relationship healthy?

    Not healthy according to you, of course: any heroin addict will tell you that heroin is great for him.

    And of course, this is the basic principle of all fascists from Plato onwards: people are not qualified to decide the course of their own lives, since “we? (Gordseller in this case) know better. Indeed, people are specifically unqualified to decide their own lives because they’re biased.

    I asked you a question. Instead of answering it, you called me a fascist. How is it healthy? How can people giving up their liberty to live as a pretend-slave to someone else, or, more disturbingly, as a “real” slave to someone else, healthy. You’ve pretty much avoided that question since I first raised it.

    As for whether judging how others live is fascist… no it’s not. We all judge how others live all the time. That’s human thinking. You’re judging my judgment. Everyone’s always judging what they see, even when they try to make an effort to do it on more sensible grounds — note my objections are focused on mental health, not religious dogma, for example — but nonetheless, we all are all judging.

    And yes, some people obviously are not properly equipped to judge how to live their lives. Men who beat their children; corrupt CEOs; bent cops; and people who exploit those who are more vulnerable than themselves.

    (I am willing to imagine that to some degree, exploitation is a part of the Master/slave relationship you deem so natural and healthy. You’ve said nothing so far to convince me otherwise, I must again note.)

    So, are there any mental health professionals who have endorsed this?

    Guy Baldwin is the obvious example.

    I also specified that they would be mental health professionals not personally involved in the movement, though you cut that part, for obvious reasons.

    I understand that, yes, if bigotry were running high, many people would not support something for the wrong reasons. But there are a lot of psychiatrists and sex therapiists who are very open-minded in general these days, and the only example of one who has endorsed this is a man who was “Mr. Leather Association” and “Mr. National Leather Association” concurrently? I mean, isn’t there anyone else you can put forward, who, say, isn’t an activist in the field?

    And by the way, from the interview I read just now, even Baldwin has criticisms of slave culture reminiscent of mine — that there’s no safety net for people leaving such relationships, that without very specific things in place, it can be very bad for a person… I assume he doesn’t mention this because most people have those things in place, but rather because all too many people fail to do so — as, I might add, people often fail to do in any relationship.

    I didn’t pour bile out at you, you big baby.?

    So you’re playground bully as well as a bigot.

    And you’re calling names, which is about the point I disengage conversation, except that I called you a name, too. So maybe it’s fair, since we’re both exaggerating.

    And that people with mental health problems tend to make very unhealthy decisions in all kinds of contexts. And that for that reason, it’s wise to have legal safeguards against people taking advantage of others in such situations.

    Except it’s only you who are asserting that people
    pursuing M/s relationships must be mentually ill,
    just as your kind claimed that Soviet dissidents
    “must? be mentally ill to be dissidents, and
    homosexuals “must? be mentally ill to be gay.

    Just because the Stalinists did it, doesn’t mean I’m like a Stalinist. I mean, Hitler preferred small mom-and-pop businesses to megacorporations, but that doesn’t mean we ought not to criticize megacorps, does it? It does not follow, and obviously you need to study some basic logic while you’re at it.

    It’s just yet another way of trying to control
    people: label anyone as mad if they don’t conform
    to your narrow views about what kinds of
    relationships should be made illegal, as you’ve
    revealed in private.

    Eh? What I “revealed in private” was that there’s a good social reason why master-slave relationships ARE illegal. Tanos, I don’t want to make them illegal, they ARE illegal, and they are that way for VERY CLEAR HISTORICAL REASONS. You need to come outside your door and join us back in reality, man.

    As I noted in my email, nobody bashes BDSMers.

    BDSM people continue to suffer dicrimination in
    the workplace, at child custody hearings and from
    bigots like you in the criminal justice system:
    people are sacked for doing consensual BDSM, lose
    access to their children if their ex finds out,
    and suffer raids and legal harrassment of our
    clubs – just as gay men and women were 50 years
    ago.

    It’s unfortunate that your community is targeted in that way, though, in terms of parental custody, I can sort of understand why… given that one parent’s sexuality is inherently about pushing limits, one has to wonder what kind of limits will be pushed later on. That distrust is probably just unavoidable right now, when in reality, custody cases should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

    I think that houses in which master-slave relationships are going on should bloody well be raided, because slavery is flat-out illegal. The mistake I made in my comment above was conflating BDSM and slavery, which I shouldn’t have done, especially since it gave you another chance to bemoan the sufferings of BDSM enthusiasts. Nobody goes slaver-bashing, do they? As for losing your job, you have slaves! Why would you need a job? Buy some farmland, man. You’ll get by. And yes, I’m being sarcastic, but also querying just how much like real slaves these people are to you. Can you make them pick cotton? Can you beat them if they refuse? Or are you misusing the term slave?

    I don’t see the Master/Slave arrangement your sites are devoted to as ‘sex’

    Which, in the original context of the discussion, clearly meant I don’t mistake the master-slave thing as being solely about sex, though sexuality is a part of it… and, I take it from the content of your sites, a significant one.

    and

    “I didn’t pour bile out at you, you big baby.?

    And that’s the second time you’re quoting that, you realize?

    Well then you’re a liar too, because this is the kind of thing you’re really saying by email:

    The lowest common human denominator is sex,
    so of course you get (relatively a lot of)
    traffic… even if it’s just a weird minority,
    really, considering all net users.

    Come on, man. I was responding to how proud you are to have high traffic on your site. If you’re telling me that BDSM isn’t related to sex, or that sex isn’t the lowest common denominator among humans — and, right now, the biggest moneymaking industry on the Net — then you’re really detached from reality.

    Nine out of ten people will read a website about sex. Nine out of a thousand will read a website about politics. Nine of out a hundred thousand will read a website about noncoding DNA. Sex is the lowest common denominator. And BDSM is really quite closely related to sex, more than generally to relationships, for most who practice it, right? (I mean, BDSM doesn’t inform how people eat breakfast or clean the grouting in the bathroom, does it?)

    Tanos, I’m going to try to make this easier for you to respond to. If you cut and paste quotes out of context, I’ll ban you. You have your own website to write your analogies, misplaced anger, and so on. For the benefit of this conversation, I’m going to ask you to answer the questions I asked long ago — and if you don’t answer them, this conversation will just have to be over.

    1. Please demonstrate how enslaving people, whether they’re “willing” or not, is healthy.

    2. Please demonstrate who “willing” is unproblematic for all people. (Because I suspect that it’s impossible to demonstrate that, and your reliance on “consensual” can’t dismiss all concern given the extremity of what people consent to in enslaving themselves to others.)

    3. Please present a number of mainstream mental health professionals besides the one you’ve mentioned who argue that enslavement is not unhealthy, or need not be unhealthy.

    4. Explain why enslavement should be legal with consent, and then demonstrate how to establish competency and actual consent. (Because lots of victims of human trafficking would be claimed to consent, but are simply coerced to do so. And yes, this stuff exists all over the world.) Also I (and most people) would have serious doubts about the competency of any human who willingly gives up their human liberty to be a slave, so the bit about establishing competency and real consent are important.

    If you really endeavour to answer those questions, fine, I’ll take it as goodwill and continue this conversation. If not, I see no point in doing so.

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