Over at the USS Clueless, the Captain is busy bringing up the most idiotic examples of leftist criticism and smashing them down. Does anyone know the word “strawman”? It doesn’t just mean “imaginary idiotic argument”, it can quite easily mean “real idiotic argument not espoused by anyone who matters.” I know these ignorant rhetoric-spouting leftist whingers, believe me, and despite my sympathies (I dislike most of what they dislike, to be honest), they embarass me.
But it doesn’t make Bush acceptable, or the situation in America or Iraq acceptable, either.
However, shooting fish in the barrel is the sport of the lazy man. I am not surprised it happens on most of the most popular blogs online. It’s just disappointing.
(And by the way I think the same of leftwingers who sit around saying we should censor Ann Coulter. I mean, we should have popular discussion of her, so people can see what a f*cking moron she is, yes. The only credible argument I’ve seen for silencing her, though, was made by a right-winger who said she was hurting the right…)
Another form of strawman arguement is to cherry-pick the weakest arguement from an opponent’s presentation instead of argueing against the strongest arguement.
I’ve yet to hear a single strong arguement against what the US is doing in Iraq, not one that holds up… So you haven’t convinced me that “someone who matters” is doing any better than the “straw men” who Beste mentioned.
Beste on the other hand has made quite comprehensive arguements in favor of what the US is doing in Iraq, but you seem to be ignoring all of those strong arguements. You picked the single weak link to attack, kind of like that 16 word nonscandal my fellow democrats are busy making fools of themselves with.
However, shooting fish in the barrel is the sport of the lazy man. I am not surprised it happens on most of the least popular blogs online. It’s just disappointing.
Touche. Of course, I should say, as you can guess from the length of that post compared to the length of my usual ones a month back, you maybe can tell I’m working buttloads of overtime right now. Still, you’re right I didn’t go into details about why Beste is wrong.
I don’t need to. I didn’t say Beste is all through-and-through wrong. I said that this post was trash.
You’re talking to me as if I’m some obvious leftist… I’m not. I happen to think the political spectrum was hobbled when in America it developed into a bipartism system. The structure of the system determines the general range of (and kind of) opinions people have. One is either left or right. Transcending it is hard. (For me too.)
Why do I mention this? Because there is, right now, no really intelligent argument to defend Bush’s Administration ON THE GROUNDS THEY GAVE FOR THE WAR. No WMDs were found. No link to Al Quaida exists. Saddam was a bad man for a long time, and nobody gave a shit. (And plenty of other bad men seem to go by unnoticed.)
Almost all of the arguments I’ve seen online do not stem from the impetus to see truth. They stem from the impetus that the Bush is either right and must be defended, or is wrong and needs to be attacked. This, of course, is a reflection of the cognitive distortion that American political bipartisanism has wreaked on the average mind (and shockingly many above-average ones too).
I can’t say for sure that the arguments on USS Clueless are those of someone whose mind is thus distorted, because frankly I just started looking about there the other day, during a busy time. I don’t know, maybe I would have a lot to agree with on the site. But what I commented on was hokum trash.
I said about a couple of postmodernist writers the other day, “Maybe some other stuff they wrote was brilliant, but that shit I read of theirs the other day was such absolute idiocy I cannot take them seriously.”
Of course, I don’t blame the author for this: it’s part of the whole political game that Americans (and people who talk with them) have been dragged into in recent history. But come on, posting a list of wacko leftists and pointing out they are stupid is symptomatic of a kind of game being played… look, there, leftist wackos! It’s akin to how otherwise intelligent leftists suddenly start bringing up the Religious Right and quoting bigoted, backwards-as-hell Senators as evidence of… of what?
It’s proof of their belief that the members of the opposing political doctrine are all, somehow, deep down, a little bit skewed, wrong, weird, and off. The right feels it. The left feels it. And that fundamental disrespect is exactly what is destructive about American bipartisan politics today: there is no respect, no commitment to compromise, to decent and peaceful and respectful cohabitation.
(Not that my own country, Canada, is doing incredibly better politically with its multiparty system, but I think it is doing better in terms of intellectually cultivating the average citizen in the popular media (like TV news), and of having a reasonable political spectrum to choose from.)
But I should give the USS Clueless a chance, I suppose, read some more before I pass judgment on the whole site. That post, though, I won’t back off about: it was crap, and worse, symptomatic of the stupid gameplay that is a sign of the most important part of that promising new young political system that America once so bravely pioneered.
Crap, perhaps, but entertaining crap.
Or is it wrong to find amusement in the bizarre rantings of the conspiracy theorists?
One of the best things about Beste’s blog is that he isn’t always serious.
right now, no really intelligent argument to defend Bush’s Administration ON THE GROUNDS THEY GAVE FOR THE WAR. No WMDs were found. No link to Al Quaida exists. Saddam was a bad man for a long time, and nobody gave a shit. (And plenty of other bad men seem to go by unnoticed.)
Almost all of the arguments I’ve seen online do not stem from the impetus to see truth. They stem from the impetus that the Bush is either right and must be defended, or is wrong and needs to be attacked. This, of course, is a reflection of the cognitive distortion that American political bipartisanism has wreaked on the average mind (and shockingly many above-average ones too).
That’s an astute analysis of what most Americans are doing… Perhaps I see it the same way you did because I grew up in Canada as well and I find the way Americans debate politics to be very disappointing. I think Canadians are capable of meaningful debate in ways the Americans can’t even imagine.
But somehow America manages to muddle through and accomplish amazing things year after even without much meaningful public debate.
But you should read more Beste. He does attempt to answer your objection that the Bush administration’s actions can’t be well defended “ON THE GROUNDS THEY GAVE FOR THE WAR.”
I came to the same conclusion that Beste did – studying the very complex situation in the middle east and following the diplomatic situation in Europe and even a little about the military situtation – it was always clear to me that the Bush administration could never afford to be particularly frank about it’s motivations and intentions. I always understood exactly what the issues were and (to a much greater extent than most people) what the motivations and aims either were or should be… But most people don’t have the time, inclination and (perhaps) talent for figuring that stuff out, so I can sympathize with peoples’ confusion.
But I can’t agree that Bush did a single thing wrong. Let me point out that I’ve always been a leftist. I was against the cold war hysteria. I voted for Ralph Nader. But having taken the time to study the middle east situation, I’m 100% behind George W. Bush’s actions in the middle east, and I’m even (very reluctantly) behind the domestic actions in the war on terror.
Anyway I think SDB’s analysis of the problems in Arab/Muslim culture are very oversimplified, but he has the right idea in that there is where the real problem and the real solution lies even if (in my opinion) he doesn’t really know what those problems are.
I don’t have time to go into more detail right now… Perhaps I should start my own blog ’cause I don’t think any of these topics can be covered by any short posts.
” Saddam was a bad man for a long time, and nobody gave a shit.”
Really? Nobody gave a shit? Then what was up with 12 years of enforcement of no-fly zones in N & S Iraq? IIRC, both US and UK flew these missions.
Um, and you are playing the typical anti-American selective blindness game. There was a little thing in NYC in September a couple years ago. Maybe you heard about it? It was mentioned in the newspapers.
9/11 demonstrated to the American people that ignoring these folks just got us killed. And people started paying attention and connecting dots. As they looked closer, they realized that more and more dots were part of the pattern. WTC 1993, Kenya embassy bombings, Kohbar towers, USS Cole, etc.
Ray,
When I say “nobody gave a shit” I mean that nobody cared enough to, say, stage an invasion. What was the impetus for that? Was it truly, do you think, that Saddam is a bad man? Or that there are forces in the Iraqi government that hate America? Well then what about in China? How about North Korea? What about… hell, most countries?
So what is America’s plan? To stage invasions of all “rogue states”? I mean there are dozens of them out there. And believe me, even in states that are dependent on America’s military power for protection (like in Canada, or South Korea, where I live now) there is little honest love for America (less than there maybe should be, though I’m not saying everyone should love America either; some people honestly have pretty good reason to hate the USA).
As for connecting the dots, Saddam and Al Quaida hate one another. That’s well-known. I don’t understand what dots are connected in your head, but “ignoring these folks” seems to constitute ignoring any somewhat hostile power. “These folks”, whoever they are, seem to be a pretty big category for you, and a nebulous one at that.
As for me playing anti-American games: see, there you go playing that typical game of pro- or anti-… I am critical of America, but it does not make me anti-American. I respect and love some things about America, but it does not make me pro-American. Actions and strategies are arguably right or wrong, or intelligent or stupid: that’s a simple fact of life, and simply making a stand on your opinion about this doesn’t make you pro- or anti- anything. There are not just two positions in the world, you know. The world is more complicated than that.
Joshua… I’ll try read more of Beste’s real arguments… and let you know if I have anything more to say. Thanks!